Help me decide on a fun BMW

"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud) 07/30/2015 at 17:56 • Filed to: None

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Alright, here’s the deal. I’ve been craving getting back into a manual transmission vehicle for the last couple of years. Since my Land Cruiser is perfect for hauling the family (married, 1 year old) and dealing with Midwestern winters, whatever I choose is going to be a second vehicle for me, and thusly doesn’t not need to be particularly practical. For whatever reason, I would like to get a BMW.

This whole mess started when I found a $2,500 E30 in seemingly immaculate condition on my local CL. However, after contacting the owner, it appears something died in the ducts and that’s why it was so cheap. The owner ended up pulling the ad. But these discussions got me on the BMW train.

Since this is going to be a second vehicle, and I have a wife and baby, cost is key. I would like to keep it below $10,000, but would consider going up to $15,000 for especially cool cars. Likewise, while I would prefer a coupe, a super sedan like an M5 that I could throw a car seat into the back of could help win the wife over.

Based on what I’ve seen on online, I’ve been zeroing in on the following, ranked oldest to newest:

- 1968-75 - 2002 - Small, easy to work on, light, and can be made gorgeous. Simplicity is very attractive here.

- 1985-90 - E28 M5 / M535i / 535is - I love the looks of these, not easy to find, especially in the M5 variety.

- 1996-99 E36 M3 - Pretty easy to find in decent condition under $10,000. Not a powerhouse, but a good candidate for the occasional track day. Lots of mods available.

- 2001-03 E39 M5 - Scraping the top end of my budget, but still doable. I’ve been in love with these since they came out. Certainly higher maintenance costs than the others, but the ability to carry a car seat comfortably helps.

- 2000-02 Z3 Coupe 3.0l - I’m not crazy about the roadster, but love the coupe. If I ever win the lottery, there will be an M coupe in my garage, but for now that’s out of my budget. Great looking car

- 2000-2006 E46 M3 - The earlier years are starting to dip below $10,000 by me. Would certainly give me the sportiness, but also has higher maintenance costs. Also seems to be the most common on this list for what that’s worth.

What do you guys think? During spring to fall, it would probably be my DD, excluding road trips, and I would love to try a track day or two. Also, southern Wisconsin has some gorgeous driving roads that would be a lot of fun.

Thoughts?

Needmoargarage > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 18:02

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I think the answer to your question depends on the magnitude of time and money you want to spend on parts and maintenance.

In my opinion, earlier BMWs are easier to work on and cheaper to track if that’s interesting to you.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 18:02

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If you can find an M Coupe I’d go with that, simply because they’re awesome.

Otherwise my vote is for the 2002 or an E36 M3.

The 2002 is just an awesome little car, and I hear they are a blast to drive.

The E36 is a great performer, they’re fairly abundant, and would be a great DD/track toy.

You live close to me (I’m in Chicago, just moved down closer to the city from the far north suburbs) and there are plenty of autocrosses and track days to attend! Also, you should come check out the BMW Vintage Fest that the Windy City BMW Club holds at my office every fall. You might even find the BMW you’re looking for!

Also, what about a nice E30? Why didn’t you include that in your list?

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 18:03

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There’s a silver Z3 Coupe on autotrader for 12k

There’s also a black on red Z4 Coupe on there for 13k.

I’d pick the latter

Bytemite > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 18:18

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If this is going to be your fun car, look no further than a Z4.

Particularly the first gen Z4 3.0si.

260 HP, less than $10k, amazing looks and good handling.

Nibby > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 18:31

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I keep in touch with good ol’ SR20 himself and he bought a Z3M Roadster a few months ago. He *LOVES* it.

Tohru > Nibby 07/30/2015 at 18:36

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SR20 or gtfac

finn's arm > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 18:40

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E36M - The 4 door would be best, but they’re rare. Easy to work on, cheap to run, and modern enough that it’s safer than a 2002.

Tohru > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 18:41

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If you get an ‘02, bring it to my shop near Wisconsin Dells and I’ll give it the Tohru treatment.

Alternately, I can do the Reverse Tohru.

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Actually, no matter which one you get bring it over. I’m sure I can work with it.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 18:54

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Based on your needs, I would advise either an e39 M5 or and e46 M3. The e39 would be spacious enough for your carseat and having an actual door would probably be helpful for taking your kid in and out of the seat. The e46 would be a little more difficult to fit a child in but I have seen a few guys on M3Forum using them with carseats so it shouldn’t be that big of an issue.

The main issues with the e39 M5 are carbon buildup within the engine but those are relatively isolated (and overblown on the internet) to the early pre-facelift models (pre-2001 I think).

The e46 M3 on the other hand has the VANOS and subframe issues. The subframe should be fine if you get an older one that’s been serviced. the subframe was mainly an issue for pre-facelift models (pre-2003.5). The facelift ones can still have the issue but not as prominently. Alternatively, some have had the recall done and some have had aftermarket kits (Turner, AKG) used for bracing which will take care of it. Those don’t really need to be done unless you are planning to track the car but could be done for prevention and peace of mind. That would be around 2 grand for parts and labor I believe if you get it done at a reputable indie shop. As for the VANOS, that’s sort of hit or miss according to what I have read. There are two trains of thoughts on this issue. You can either go the preventative route and use the Dr. VANOS beefed up kit that is available and replace it before it goes or you can wait until you hear the infamous VANOS rattle and then repair it. Some believe it’s best to leave it alone to prevent any future issues while others prefer to get it replaced in hopes it never happens.

Other than that, for maintenance, you just need to follow the Inspection I/II cycles and replace parts before they decide to grenade and take other parts with them. If you are also mechanically inclined, you can do the valve adjustments yourself fairly easily with a spacer kit (about $500 I think) and save yourself a good amount of cost.

So my advice is if you’re going for the either of them is find a facelift model. The M5 for 10,000 is doable although for the e46 M3, the well maintained facelift models tend to go for $12000-15000.

505 - morphine not found > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 19:02

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I’m of the classic inclination, so in your shoes, I would pick the 2002. That said, I would also, most likely, get a power hike in there somewhere, be it tuning, or engine swap. I actually know a guy doing just that, as we speak, and he had his 2002 for like 15 years now.

The thing to look out for here is that classics (in this sense: before 1990) drive completely differently than modern cars. I’m not meaning dynamics, they’re good, but these were engineered for skinny, slippery tires, a bit of body flex and lots of leaning in corners. They are great fun as is, but if you are planning on doing track / auto-x work in it you’ll most likely look at suspension, brake and engine upgrades. The upside is, once you’re done, you’ll have your very own car, that’s unlike any other on the road, and will make every drive an occasion.

The two newer M3s are much more track-ready in factory form, while still good DD choices, at least that’s what people will tell you. That is what the M letter stands for: their cooling system, steering, brakes and suspension was built, from the factory, to take a track beating, that street cars just don’t. So if you are really looking for a track / auto-x toy, these are your safest bets, and I would pick the cheaper-to-upkeep E36.

Even though it’s the only proper sports car of your lot, the Z4 will need more work for track duty, exactly because it’s not an M car. However, if most of your driving will be on the road, it might be a bit more special, than the Ms. Basically the same goes here as with the 2002, you’ll only need to decide if you need (relatively) modern safety and AC, or old-school charm more.

Lastly, I would leave the E28 and the E39 alone. They are great for hauling the family at speed, but you’re not looking for that, are you? And when you’re mostly driving alone, why keep all that empty space around you? Even the 2002 will carry your wife and *two* kids, if you put in rear seat belts, and they will love it.

x87172 > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 19:22

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Get the 2002.

It’s an awesome classic that you’ll love to drive and work on, not to mention the fact that it’ll appreciate.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Tohru 07/30/2015 at 20:31

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No

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Nibby 07/30/2015 at 20:31

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#clownsandal

Tohru > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 07/30/2015 at 20:38

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It’s a joke. Go flex your impressive mod boner elsewhere.

WiscoProud > Nibby 07/30/2015 at 20:49

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The Z3ms are great, but the coupe seems to to go for 25k+, paradise it would be a lock

WiscoProud > Tohru 07/30/2015 at 20:51

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Very nice. I have everything to do most work, that being said, I have no experience with any engine out work. I’ll keep you in mind

Tohru > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 20:52

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Sweet!

WiscoProud > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 07/30/2015 at 21:20

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I’ve looked quite a bit at e30s actually. If I came across a nice 325is I would be interested. Of course an e30 m3 is always welcome, but my budget isn’t nearly big enough for those.

I like the e39 for the velvet hammer that it is, and that engine note is intoxicating. As for the e34, it’s measurements are actually quite similar to the e36 m3 and it has more power. That and the vintage look is pretty cool.

Where are you at in Chicago? I actually lived in Chicago for the last 8 years, we only moved back to Milwaukee in December

WiscoProud > Needmoargarage 07/30/2015 at 21:22

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Time is the main issue. I love working on my own vehicles, but with an infant it’s tough to carve out a day. So simplicity is a factor.

WiscoProud > Bytemite 07/30/2015 at 21:23

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I do like the Z4s, especially the coupes. I’m looking for something more “historic” though.

WiscoProud > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 07/30/2015 at 21:28

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I’ve read up on the issues with both and was actually on the Dr. Vanos website today. I will say the rear subframe issue with the e46s would make me nervous.

I would try to do all the maintenance I could. Not sure if I would be up to a vanos refurb or the valve adjustment without reading up on it first though.

WiscoProud > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 07/30/2015 at 21:29

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Out of the two, neither being an m, if pick the z4 too

WiscoProud > x87172 07/30/2015 at 21:30

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I drool over nice 2002s all the time.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 22:05

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There are actually a wealth of DIYs with detailed pictures on M3Forum if you need them. Here’s one for the VANOS and one for the valve adjustment . Otherwise the Bentley manual would be good as well.

As for the subframe reinforcement, it sounds pretty scary to me as well but from what I have seen it’s usually not a big concern as long as you get a proper PPI done to inspect for cracks. Usually the guys who track their M3 will go for the reinforcement kits otherwise you might be able to get away with not needing it. Even when the cracks are present the reinforcement kits can still be installed as long as it isn’t a major crack. There’s epoxy kits and welded kits with some debate as to which is preferred. While they could be DIY I personally wouldn’t trust myself to do something that major in my garage.

itranthelasttimeiparkedit > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 22:08

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Just gotta guilt your wife into it. My wife was at happy hour twice this week so guess who is watching the baby all saturday?

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Tohru 07/30/2015 at 22:16

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Damn son, that was a joke too.

Chill brochacho

Tohru > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 07/30/2015 at 22:34

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Mine was a joke as well. Which is why I said your mod boner was impressive.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Tohru 07/30/2015 at 22:41

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bruh

Tohru > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 07/30/2015 at 22:43

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I don’t even feel bad.

e36Jeff now drives a ZHP > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 22:57

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I’m slightly biased(ok, alot biased; I own one), but you should take a look at a ZHP. About as fast as an e36 M3 on the track(and fast enough to run down e46 M3s with bad/inexperienced drivers), but has some nice amenities on the inside, has a 6-speed(which if my old 328is is any indicator, you will feel like the e36 M3 is missing a gear, 5th is 1:1). They also have a large enough back seat for a toddler and ride rather nicely for how well they handle. Plus, if you can keep your foot out of the gas pedal, you can flirt with 30 mpg(my best so far is 32mpg). Also, all the ZHPs are post-facelift cars which seem to have a lower failure rate in the rear subframe, but they do still suffer from the VANOS issues. But to be fair, the VANOS is easy to fix. Its like 80-85% of the speed of an M3 for half the ownership cost.

GUYMANDUDE > WiscoProud 07/30/2015 at 23:55

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Only car with a family, e39. Or .....

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > WiscoProud 07/31/2015 at 08:35

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For sure. There’s an E28 M5 I see around the northern suburbs area fairly often, it’s awesome. I love that car. haha

I live in Evanston now, but just moved from Libertyville. I work for a branch of ZF in Vernon Hills, and like I said we host the Windy City BMW Club’s Vintage Fest every fall. You should definitely come check it out this year. Some absolutely amazing cars are on display, and I wouldn’t be surprised if more than a couple owners would be willing to part with their Bavarian machines for the right price.

WiscoProud > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 07/31/2015 at 09:57

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If I go that direction, I'll just make damn sure it doesn't have the cracks. I've been reading the various buyer guides and how-tos regarding common problems for a few days now. While I'm confident I can handle the mechanical stuff, I would stay away from any body or frame work.

WiscoProud > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 07/31/2015 at 09:58

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That sounds like a lot of fun actually. When is it?

I really like the look of the E28 M5, and the fact its not much heavier than an E36 M3 WITH a stronger motor certainly helps.

WiscoProud > e36Jeff now drives a ZHP 07/31/2015 at 10:00

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I actually did research the ZHPs, since there was a coupe for sale by me. I like them, but they just don't have enough wow to be a second car. If it was my only car? Sure.

WiscoProud > finn's arm 07/31/2015 at 10:01

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I’m not crazy about the proportions of a M3 sedan. Nothing in particular, they just don't grab me like the others.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > WiscoProud 07/31/2015 at 10:02

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Weekend of September 13th and 14th.

Here’s the FB event page: https://www.facebook.com/events/1615792…

Info can also be found on the Windy City BMW site: http://www.windycitybmw.com/activity.aspx?…

Hope to see you there!

finn's arm > WiscoProud 07/31/2015 at 10:16

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Fair point. I wouldn’t trade my coupe for one for that exact reason. The coupe’s rear seats are useless for storage b/c I’m a longer fellow. My old sedan was easier for chunking my work bag in the back seat along w/ groceries. As a DD, it fails in that regard. The trunk is plenty big though.

330iT? IMO looks better than a Z3M w/ the M-sport bits on. Would be my choice if I was getting rid of my E36. Has a better weight distribution than the coupe or sedan, plenty quick, and the same size brakes as an E36 M3. Z3M’s have the same shit quality interior as the E36. I’d take this over an E36/7 Z3 coupe w/ 3.0i. The M-coupe is smmaaaallll and if you’re Wisconsin sized, you couldn’t wear a helmet inside. It’s cramped. As a DD, wagons have more sound deadening so you’ll notice the quieter drive compared to a similar sedan.

E34 535i or E39 540i? Almost as fun as the M5’s of their era, but smaller price tag and running costs. They aren’t huge either and are quite nimble. Not M3 or 2002 nimble, but you will still see them at the track.

The cars I listed don’t have the M in the name, but were all sold with M bits and pieces.

WiscoProud > 505 - morphine not found 07/31/2015 at 10:17

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I've read up on the 2002s pretty extensively. As nice as the Tiis are, it seems the NA ones are easier to tune. If I got one I would likely throw on a set of side draft weber carbs, likely the 40s. That should give me about 150hp, especially if I add a mild cam, which would be great for a vehicle that weights a little over 2,000 pounds.

WiscoProud > finn's arm 07/31/2015 at 10:26

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The E34s don’t grab me much either, the styling is kind of bland, but they are good vehicles. I actually have looked at E39 540i especially after reading the review on Car Buying. I’ve read that the 540i was originally supposed to be the top e39, but due to the high horsepower cars being put out by MB and Audi, BMW decided to make an M5.

You’re probably right about the z coupe being too cramped. I'm not full-on Wisconsin wide, but I am 6'5".

Jake Girardet > Tohru 08/07/2015 at 14:59

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Wait. Why are all of these missing their kidneys?! Are you not a fan of the look of the Kidneys?

Tohru > Jake Girardet 08/07/2015 at 20:04

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The Tohru trademark is monogrilled BMW's. It's a stupid affectation. Plus when they get single grilles, they look like Buicks or Kias and it really takes the wind out of their luxury car sails.